Tulpa.info - tulpa-discussion

In the part you quoted

Oh wow, I completely missed that

3:50 PM

The beginning of the guide has a heavy handed personality forcing approach and doesn't go over parroting, but wow, that sentence implies they have a sense of what parroting is (edited)

KNOW they are there, and know they are listening and absorbing whatever experiences you're sharing with them, even if at first it might seem like you're just dragging their limp body along.

This is the kind of thing I'd expect in a tulpa guide, where you direct thoughts to them and expect them to come alive on their own, independently from the host. Where there can be a period where they don't do anything, and you hope they can hear you and someday respond

3:53 PM

(And I think that method only works for some people) (edited)

It's troubling to see the wavering insecurity over how separate one's "imaginary friends" are though based on what I read in the guide. It's that uncertainty that allows for sentience to develop and at the very least, and I know that if you allow tulpa creation, there's a good chance you will allow pain and frustration. In other words, if say your character was traumatized in the past and you make them sentient, they'll be pissed about having a trauma history because that will affect them. That's why we give around the advice "don't make a villain tulpa, etc"

@A long kiss goodnight - jump Some people enjoy "evil" tulpas.

While this is true, I know a fair amount of tulpas who don't. Once you allow a tulpa to have sentience, their opinion matters too

Well, overall, Ranger, I think you look on that guide through lens of tulpamancy's traditions. They aren't making an assumption that ~~tulpa~~ an imaginary friend has to have the most possible agency. They want to have fun with their characters. Which is perfectly fine. It's tulpamancy's tradition to let tulpas be as independent as possible. It's tulpamancy's tradition to care about parroting so much that we made up another word for parrotnoia It's tulpamancy's (or plurality's) tradition to think that other people seeing a person in another human, not their n identities are dehumanizing anyone.

When will I know I'm talking to my friend and not myself? Don't stress about it. The important part is always seeing them as separate from you. When you're talking "for them", see that as you simply translating the intent of what they wanted to say into words, since they can't yet do that themselves. Know that deep down, they're listening and trying to respond, and things will become natural soon enough.

See, it brings the same parrotnoia inducing mindset that tulpamancy has. If I were making an imaginary friend, I'd just skip all that and it'd be very easy

Sora Faux

Well, overall, Ranger, I think you look on that guide through lens of tulpamancy's traditions. They aren't making an assumption that ~~tulpa~~ an imaginary friend has to have the most possible agency. They want to have fun with their characters. Which is perfectly fine. It's tulpamancy's tradition to let tulpas be as independent as possible. It's tulpamancy's tradition to care about parroting so much that we made up another word for parrotnoia It's tulpamancy's (or plurality's) tradition to think that other people seeing a person in another human, not their n identities are dehumanizing anyone.

While I agree this is a good point, what I don't understand is why there would be any frustration about this process. If your character is just you, who cares if I'm talking to myself?

4:10 PM

Kids make imaginary friends, they aren't stressed about the "legitimately" of their creations

Adults somehow do. Do you think that label "tulpa" decides if not getting automatic responses can lead to frustration or not?

What do you define as "automatic responses"?

@Yuka - jump Responses that you feel having tulpa's agency and not your own.

Even if the tulpa spent their time thinking it out fully?

4:19 PM

Automatic to me implies the type of mindless responses you might get from a underdeveloped tulpa or a tulpa who's not very active

Sora Faux

Adults somehow do. Do you think that label "tulpa" decides if not getting automatic responses can lead to frustration or not?

I think the label "not me" can lead to frustration

4:21 PM

I don't think it has to but it can

Even if the tulpa spent their time thinking it out fully?

@Yuka - jump Well, to be honest, yeah, I feel automatic responses are typical for underdeveloped tulpamancers. Later you gain ability to think as your tulpa. Doing it on purpose is called "switching".

I'd suggest not making them look like anime girls, because you might have trouble interacting with them "physically" in the future.

??? lol

Yeah, there are a few wtf moments like that

4:28 PM

It's the same as FAQman's advice "You need to imagine your tulpa naked or else she won't be able to change clothes".

I get the sense it's unrefined. There are some ideas that I think are interesting on personality forcing but aside from that I can tell there's a lot they don't know

The personality forcing part is good, it's what some tulpa guides talk about. Sadly most tulpa guides won't go into detail and just have you list traits and symbolically give the trait to the tulpa

4:30 PM

Or tell you not to personality force

Sora Faux

Adults somehow do. Do you think that label "tulpa" decides if not getting automatic responses can lead to frustration or not?

I was afraid of me being talking to myself and once in a while im getting feeling that everyone here is doing that and this place is just a bunch of idiots sitting in a white room with soft walls, but now i just find it funny - after understanding that whether it is true or not it doesn't matter. Your view on the process doesn't change the very match nature of process, but you will make wrong conclusions from wrong assumptions and "if my tulpa isn't real they are bad and i'm sick" - is horribly wrong assumption. Sora thinks she is character, Ranger thinks she is human, but they(and their hosts, and everyone else)are similar except the parts where their view on themselves influences their capabilities. No wrong assumptions no frustrations and currently i can't find a reason for tulpamancy being bad - it just must be done right, but even if not there's no doings and decisions that can't be undone, changed or fixed. (Im sorry if i am wrong about someone's feelings about them, its just wording, dont take it personally)

Yeah, in general I agree.

4:48 PM

But I am a human... The same human as Felix is.

4:48 PM

At least when I am typing this. Sora is ultimately one of characters in my mind.

4:48 PM

It doesn't mean I am not real though.

Sora Faux

At least when I am typing this. Sora is ultimately one of characters in my mind.

Yeah of course but when you say things like this it can be kinda confusing

4:51 PM

Just because there is assumption that character and real human is different thing.

4:51 PM

And they are different but not in this interpretation

4:52 PM

Well i lost the thought

So did I. I think some ambiguity is inevitable in tulpamancy.

4:54 PM

Tulpa is both a character like one in the books and an identity we can temporarily (or in rare circumstances, even permanently) replace our own with.

4:55 PM

And how tulpa wants to act as a character and how they act when faced with fronting, can cause some inconsistencies.

Sora Faux

Tulpa is both a character like one in the books and an identity we can temporarily (or in rare circumstances, even permanently) replace our own with.

More than that just but yeah. and I would word that not like "we temporarily replace our own with" but instead "which can temporarily replace our own" - you can't force someone to front, can you?

Sora Faux

And how tulpa wants to act as a character and how they act when faced with fronting, can cause some inconsistencies.

I have some questions about that but ill ask them later

Yeah, I mix host and whole person sometimes.

Reguile

If this is the theholodoc I remember they've been around the block a few times and are worth listening to.

Thanks for the recognition, from the three of us. theholodoc.

Eyy, np

Sometimes I wonder if it's possible to make tulpamancy not look like a huge mess to outsiders and not just them. There are plenty of communities, definitions, guides, approaches that people can take. I think that it's bound to remain the mess in the long run. One person is going to tell you about imaginary companions, the other person is going to tell you about another consciousness. And then you hear about endogenic systems and being part of even bigger mess, basically. If you take approach of reading all of the articles you have found, it's going to leave you more lost than at the start. Honestly, even if you have some experience and know assumptions of many approaches to tulpamancy and have an idea of how can you transform them into each other, it sometimes gets hard to communicate within the broad tulpa community.

Information gets stored, catalogued, refined, questioned, discussed. Is situation about info that usually is used to introduce tulpa topic to strangers overall now better(less messy, more ~~scientific~~ rational, more accurate) or worse than ten years ago? Than five years ago? Than year ago? The goal of reading all articles is to introduce to basic concepts and ideas, and questions that one should ask himself, not give narrow decree, it will all make sense when you start doing something. Imo, theres no such definition that can create accurate image of tulpamancy to someone without experience. And there shouldn't really be, good definition should create and spread the image of tulpamancy as safe, common and positive topic, and encourage to ask questions and learn more. The bigger number people will knew about the thing, the more there will be people who is eager to make whole thing more structured, to fight harmful ideas and thought pits. Prejudices exist in every topic out there, but they are slowly fading away with time and work of enthusiasts. I think tulpa topic is no exception its just matter of time. Ranger is working on something relevant to this topic, you did the guide about dissipation - i think your and everyone efforts will payout for whole community.

About "plenty of communities" - i dont really know how to connect those people with eachother. Heres some purely theoretical ideas(i will take .info as the one who should spread its ideas everywhere as example) We can grow faster than that places. Start advertisment, introduce people to the topic, make some lore, idk. Treat people better. And somewhere in the future all other coms will die and that will be the victory We can try and slowly reeducate people one by one, carefully promote our ideas onto their places, steal the newbies. We can try and merge with them, erase the borders, refine our definitions to look more alike other places without losing basic ideas behind them, to grow into one big community in the end

I put some effort into making a website that would try to point to people towards guides that are appropriate for them and to give them a "living guide" That could adapt to what they're wanting to do and give them advice as they go, but it's a fairly difficult task and it mostly turned into a habit helper for me. (edited)

8:22 PM

But I think that ultimately the way to go, you need something to cut the complexity out in the program end so it doesn't have to be on the person end

You've made even bigger wall of text than I did, @Genry_the_frog . Answering your first question: it honestly doesn't seem clear to me if stuff got overall less messy, more rational and more accurate. From positive things, I think that metaphysical approach is handled better now than it was back then. But I can see many other stuff getting even more messy, like relationship between tulpamancy and so called plurality.

8:25 PM

But I think that ultimately the way to go, you need something to cut the complexity out in the program end so it doesn't have to be on the person end

@Reguile - jump I agree with that reducing complexity would be nice. But with the current state of the community, it seems unfeasible on the large scale. But you have actually been typing about your "living guide" program, haven't you?

Typing about?

Talking about your program, not overall state of tulpamancy in quoted part.

Yeah, the way you get information from the community right now is through chats like these, and chats like these are going to be inherently incredibly all over the place where everyone wants to give their opinions and there's only one slot for one message at one time. You need people to be able to see different opinions, different views, settle on that view, then dive into it from that perspective without distraction

8:28 PM

Mentorship also works for this

We have mentorship in here?

We do not, turns out writing a computer program is actually easier than herding enough people and keeping them invested enough and willing to work

8:32 PM

There is a thread in the forums, but it tends to be dead

8:32 PM

It might be a smart idea to have a formal program here for it, but we would run into the same problem where it would be dead.

What about collecting database? Surveys? Keeping track of newbies, which approaches they tried, which was results, how much time this took, etc. Just like psychiatry has huge database of various cases, i think same should be with tulpamancy, because as far as i know, all case-by-case knowledge is stored inside memory of old users.. Is there some folder maybe on the forum with list of links to posts with descriptions of people routs? Something like that?

I would love to do all of those things, but it's a lot of work and harder than it sounds

Feasibility matters indeed. I feel like controlling this mess has been infeasible since I don't know when. In my point of view, there is plenty of cool stuff in tulpamancy but plenty of traps too. I think it's infeasible to extract only good stuff in the broad community. It's feasible to make your own server and try to push a certain approach there but even it can get hard with a large community.

9:00 PM

I have been thinking about making a server dedicated to "imaginary companions" approach. But I am not sure if there are many people who would like to join.

Sora Faux

Feasibility matters indeed. I feel like controlling this mess has been infeasible since I don't know when. In my point of view, there is plenty of cool stuff in tulpamancy but plenty of traps too. I think it's infeasible to extract only good stuff in the broad community. It's feasible to make your own server and try to push a certain approach there but even it can get hard with a large community.

controlling is not the right word. It shouldn't be like that

Sora Faux

I have been thinking about making a server dedicated to "imaginary companions" approach. But I am not sure if there are many people who would like to join.

Whats your main breakpoints in comparison to tulpa approach, except obviously the term?

@Genry_the_frog - jump Safety and simplicity, I would say. I admit that being/having an imaginary companion feels less special but it is not controversial as creating another consciousness or turning oneself into a system of multiple people. And realizing that you are dealing with nothing more and nothing less than a character in your head makes approach to creation, switching etc. quite simple and intuitive.

Hardest part is finding people, even with this sort of approach to the concept you're going to get 90% crazy people interested in it

9:17 PM

At least if you try to pull from disboard. If you advertise on tulpa communities you're just going to be a tulpa community

Why not go for 100% then thonk

(edited)

9:22 PM

Seriously, is creating stable small community the point? I think we talked about making crazy people not crazy, or at least more educated

9:24 PM

The question was how to make topic more accessible to rando people

9:24 PM

No?

Yeah, it's the question we started from. A small stable community won't solve the problem of tulpamancy overall being an esoteric mess to casuals.

Reguile

Hardest part is finding people, even with this sort of approach to the concept you're going to get 90% crazy people interested in it

what about people who are aware than none of this is real but pretend it is?

9:26 PM

are they crazy?

what about people who are aware than none of this is real but pretend it is?

@rain - jump emm... excuse us? You think people don't have genuine imaginary companions and just pretend having them?

no no

Problem is, it doesn't matter how you phrase it, if we need a cast a net and the net ultimately boils down to making a person in your head, the fish that bite will not be your average person.

9:28 PM

It's very hard to gain traction with that

Sora Faux

what about people who are aware than none of this is real but pretend it is?

@rain - jump emm... excuse us? You think people don't have genuine imaginary companions and just pretend having them?

they have real imaginary companions, but they dont have the mindset of "they are just a character in my head" and pretend they are real, but they are fully aware that they are not

Tulpa got lucky because while back in the day the MLP community was a little bit out there, their desires were very childish, they wanted to talk to a real life version of Twilight sparkle! So it managed to catch a much more broad audience than it would have otherwise.

Sora Faux

Whats your main breakpoints in comparison to tulpa approach, except obviously the term?

@Genry_the_frog - jump Safety and simplicity, I would say. I admit that being/having an imaginary companion feels less special but it is not controversial as creating another consciousness or turning oneself into a system of multiple people. And realizing that you are dealing with nothing more and nothing less than a character in your head makes approach to creation, switching etc. quite simple and intuitive.

Feeling less special can be seen as good thing, today i was hesitating to talk to elfie about my problems just because i don't want to bother her, can you imagine how dumb is that? Comment about being less controversial is controversial itself - the process is the same as tulpa creation, and setting boundaries.. you see, some people will treat their imaginary companions not well just because they are imaginary. You will have to put some effort for that not happening into your community.

Reguile

Tulpa got lucky because while back in the day the MLP community was a little bit out there, their desires were very childish, they wanted to talk to a real life version of Twilight sparkle! So it managed to catch a much more broad audience than it would have otherwise.

bro omg thats why I see so many fictional tulpas?

No, that was too long ago now to have any impact anymore

I still see them though

But the after effects might be why?

they have real imaginary companions, but they dont have the mindset of "they are just a character in my head" and pretend they are real, but they are fully aware that they are not

@rain - jump Ok, I think I understand what you mean. But I wouldn't call "just characters in my head" not real. Spending time with your imaginary companions is perfectly consistent with reality.

ik, my question is, does this mindset mean you have a degree of "crazyness"?

rain

they have real imaginary companions, but they dont have the mindset of "they are just a character in my head" and pretend they are real, but they are fully aware that they are not

That sounds like russian tulpamancy approach

russian tulpamancy?

Well russia has its own tulpamancy history(thanks to imageboards) and it has pretty different mindset from what i see elsewhere. I'll compare them more indepth someday but not now ok..

You have made a summary once I think.

There has been a comparison posted online before, I don't remember where it is but it was pretty in-depth

9:41 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Tulpas/comments/8uku20/an_interview_with_the_head_of_russian_tulpamancy/

r/Tulpas - An interview with the head of Russian tulpamancy communi...

51 votes and 32 comments so far on Reddit

here I think https://discord.com/channels/431579755037589505/431591449348276224/1020233088539832360

Sora Faux

here I think https://discord.com/channels/431579755037589505/431591449348276224/1020233088539832360

That total IMO Bruh. I shouldn't be talking about russian community at all. Not unless i have at least some quite of experience with both. I am mostly spitting my thoughts out in hope that i will see other views on it and will be able to correct my. I don't want to speak for other people. Sorry.

Oh, sorry for digging it out then.

Reguile

https://www.reddit.com/r/Tulpas/comments/8uku20/an_interview_with_the_head_of_russian_tulpamancy/

Very interesting one. I had a lot "i feel you bro" moments reading it. Thanks for the link

bro what

It's a legitimate question. That's a pretty mundane things that happen in your childhood can affect you through your whole life. Rough answer is, we don't know. I doubt there would be any bad effects, but we would have to do some sort of big long-term study to be sure either way. It's definitely not going to cause schizophrenia, but could it cause more anxiety? Bad coping mechanisms? More reclusiveness? (edited)

Also, the answer is trying to say that people of lower age have lesser chance of developing a tulpa, which is bullshit

dont think you will end up with getting a mental illness but probably becomes more reclusiveness or introverted depends on each individual